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Talk:First Hebitian civilization
Hebitians Everything we know about the First Hebitian civilization is already located on that page. They were just mentioned in one episode, and after that were never heard from again. Sure, we often heard something about the Cardassian past, but that could have been any Proto-Cardassians. Most of the Hebitian background seems to be derived from novels, but nothing is from actual hard evidence in the episodes, so this content has to be reworked and merged with the Cardassian history page. --Jörg 23:17, 30 September 2006 (UTC) :I extrapolated the dialogue from numerous episodes as to the fate of the Hebitians and therefore it is considered canon. In fact, I didn't use anything from the novel in the making of this page. On the contrary, I put in information strictly from the televised episodes of TNG and DS9. I made a note about them being referenced in the book, but I did not include any of the information from it in this page aside from where the novel is referenced. I was unaware of the link to the First Hebitian civilization page as I'd looked for information about them on this site before. That is why I made this page. I have edited the other article to include a link to this page, however, we could simple merge the two articles or deleted the other, smaller article, as all of its information is already contained in this one. - Thot Prad - 30 September, 19:30 UTC ::As Jörg said, you have taken information from other episodes that did not say they were talking about Hebitians, and put it here as if they were. That is not following canon. There is only one episode that used the term. On Earth, we have more than one ancient culture, such as the Egyptians, the Aztecs, the Mayans. Who is to say the Cardassians did not? --OuroborosCobra talk 23:36, 30 September 2006 (UTC) Hebitians might not even be the same species as Cardassians. We don't know, and we have seen that many planets, including Earth can evolve multiple intelligent species. Carbonari 23:40, 30 September 2006 (UTC) :::Yeah, this page has a lotta speculation on it. I recommend we restore the first Hebitian civilization artile and merge this with that, keeping this page as a redirect. --From Andoria with Love 02:10, 1 October 2006 (UTC) :Thus far the only references to a specific Cardassian ancient civilization is the Hebitians. Furthermore, even ancient cultures on Earth were all composed of humans, much like the Hebitians would be Cardassians. I have referenced all the episodes which refer to the Cardassian's Hebitians and their ancient cultures, their reasons for an expansionist policy, everything on this page I've referenced. I have also gone through the episode scripts myself to ensure the information is in there, and watched the episodes. The 'The Hebitian Society' subarticle is the only part which I refer directly to the Hebitians (aside from their burial grounds in the 'Alternative Solution' subarticle, which again is spoken of in Chain of Command Part 2). The third subarticle focuses on the formation of the Union, and really does not reference the Hebitians aside from at the end (which again is mentioned in CoC P2). It's there to let readers know where Cardassian society went from after they began their expansionist policies. - Thot Prad, 16:45, 1 October (UTC) ::So why then is this information not on the Cardassian history page? It would fit there much better. If the third subarticle doesn't even feature the Hebitian Civilization, it really shouldn't be here. Move this well researched piece of Cardassian history to the page where it belongs and delete this page, we don't need Hebitian and First Hebitian civilization. --Jörg 22:24, 1 October 2006 (UTC) :::Voth originated on Earth, and while there seems to be no archeological evidence of it, had an advance space capable culture. While I am not saying that I believe the First Hebitian civilization was not composed of members of the species currently dominant on Cardassia Prime, we don't have canonical evidence they are the same species. They could be from another planet. Vulcans seem to have got around a lot. The Preservers could have had influence. Even ancient Bajorans seem to have gotten to Cardassia. Even if we assume that it is composed of the same species as the ones called Cardassians, we don't know if it was a world wide civillization, or if it did directly engender the current civillization of Cardassia Prime. We know it was was an ancient civilazation on Cardassia Prime, and they had some pretty nifty burial vaults with some trinkets in it that had value. All else is speculation. We don't know anything about a Second Hebitian civilization even, but probably there was one, or why call this one the First Hebitian civilization. -- Carbonari 23:58, 1 October 2006 (UTC) *This is all of the dialogue pertaining to the Hebitians from TNG's : *Madred: "I understand that you are a student of archaeology. Did you know that ''Cardassia boasts some of the most ancient and splendid ruins anywhere in the galaxy? :*''Note that he said "Cardassia" which is usually applied to Cardassia Prime'' *Picard: "I know that the burial vaults of the First Hebitian civilization are said to be magnificent." *Madred: "Apparently when they were first unearthed, two hundred years ago, they were. The burial vaults contained unimaginably beautiful artifacts made of jevonite -- a rare, breathtaking stone. But most of those objects are gone." :*'All of this is covered in the article *Picard: "What happened to them?" *Madred: "What happens to impoverished societies... the tombs were plundered, priceless treasures stolen... a few were preserved in museums... but even those were eventually sold in order to pay for our war efforts." :*Right here, he mentions they were an impoverished society. Impoverished societies suffer from the following conditions which you will see below in later dialogue: famine, disease, etc. Also, I find it HIGHLY unlikely that any other race or species would have sold off the burial vaults when Cardassians are the species native to Cardassia Prime. ... * Madred: "Let's not waste time arguing about issues we can't resolve. Would you care to tour the Hebitian burial vaults? Even though they've been stripped of funerary regalia, the tomb paintings are extraordinary. Any student of archaeology would be thrilled." ... *Madred: "What do you know of Cardassian history?" :*''Emphasis on Cardassian history, not any other species history. Considering how he has been referring to the Hebitians before, it's not a leap in logic to presume he is still doing so here *Picard: "I know that once you were a peaceful people, that you had a rich spiritual life-" :*''Sounds a lot like the Hebitians who had amazing burial vaults which are directly connected to spirituality in almost every culture, and they are a peaceful people'' *Madred: "And what did peace and spirituality get us? People starved by the millions. Bodies went unburied -- disease was rampant. The suffering was unimaginable." :*''Here is where disease and famine is mentioned in the dialogue, which are typical in impoverished societies, like the Hebitians *Picard: "Since the military took over hundreds of thousands more have died-" :*''The military's take over is explained in my article. They were the ones who sold off the artifacts, again stated in my article.'' *Madred: "But we-are-feeding-the-people." :*''Thus, the current Cardassian way of life began, with the populations relying on the military, they had free reign to control the people.'' And that is my reasoning for the details I have of this article. - Thot Prad, 16:35, 11 October (UTC) :Yes, still, this doesn't belong here but has to be moved to Cardassian history. --Jörg 20:39, 11 October 2006 (UTC) ::This page is linked to Cardassian history, but is its own seperate article because it focuses on the Hebitians and how their way of life ceased to exist. The most important parts of this article are already present on the Cardassian History page, though I can expand upon it if you would like. - Thot Prad, 16:43, 11 October (UTC) :::The problem is that Hebitians were never named in canon. This is too much extrapolation and is not needed, when everything can be contained on the Cardassian history page. --Jörg 20:49, 11 October 2006 (UTC) :Actually, the term "Hebitian" is used multiple times throughout the script. I've got all of their references above on the talk page. So, they are spoken in canon elements of Star Trek. I personally feel that they deserve their own article, and I have provided reasonable references to support my page. - Thot Prad, 16:55, 11 October (UTC) ::::Well, the basic issue is still: we have this article, and we have First Hebitian civilization. We surely don't need two articles about one group of people, so a merge is going to happen. We might even merge to this page, because "Hebitian" is more generic than the title of the other page - in any case, keep the other title as a redirect. ::::Another open question: What should be the content of the merged page. We really shouldn't have information about Cardassian history on a page about people who might be unrelated. Definitely make note of the other page on both, but don't duplicate content that doesn't need duplication. We also shouldn't speculate whether the Hebitians really are forefathers of the Cardassians or not, or if they were a planet-wide civilization or just a local group... That all needs to go. -- Cid Highwind 21:14, 11 October 2006 (UTC) ::I definatly agree to a merging of both pages, as there is no need for two of them. I will edit this page to go into less detail about Cardassian History (which I just spent hours redoing and expanding) and insure it focuses on the Hebitians more. I'd agree that this page title is better, as it's a lot shorter and more generic than First Hebitian civilization. Also, I put all that 'speculation' in the discussion page here because I needed to clearly demonstrate the logic that they are related. If you feel it needs to be removed from the talk page, then I'm not going to argue with it. However, I would like to see the "innacurate article" bar removed as I have clearly clerified things, and due to the fact I will edit the article to focus more on the Hebitians. - Thot Prad, 22:36, 11 October (UTC) :::This article still contains quite a bit of speculation about it. Here are the only things we know about this culture: ::::#They had burial vaults, which were "said to be quite magnificent" ::::#Those vaults were unearthed in the 22nd century; they contained artificats made of jevonite and and tomb paintings ::::#By the time the vaults were rediscovered, the Cardassians (not necessarily the Hebitians) were an impoverished people (due in part to famine, apparently), and they plundered the Hebitian vaults ::::#Some of those artifacts were preserved in museums but were ultimately sold to pay for war efforts :::Now, from those points and from dialogue in the same episode, we can assume the First Hebitians were a peaceful, spiritual society. Stating that other information mentioned in other episodes relates to the Hebitians is speculation, no matter how likely it seems. :::I can see you're very passionate about Cardassian history-related articles, and we encourage that, but we have to stick with what's been clearly established on-screen, as per are . That said, however, it's possible that some of the speculation present may be included in the first Hebitian page as background information. However, I believe that Hebitian should redirect to First Hebitian civilization, and any information be stored on the latter page. --From Andoria with Love 07:07, 12 October 2006 (UTC) :::*With no opposition after three days and since the majority are in agreement that much of the information is speculation, I have merged the contents of this article to First Hebitian civilization. --From Andoria with Love 07:54, 15 October 2006 (UTC)